Episode 69 – Access and Excess (SKIN)

Gabrielle Martin: Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I’m Gabrielle Martin, Push’s artistic director, and today’s episode centers a conversation about collaboration, curiosity, and how shared practice reshapes the way we think about movement and relation.

I’m speaking with Renae Shadler , choreographer of Skin, and co-creator and performer alongside Roland Walter. Skin is being presented at the Push Festival February 4th to 6th, 2026. Performed by Roland Walter, a dancer with full body spastic paralysis, and Renae Shadler , a non-disabled choreographer, Skin unfolds between contraction and expansion, inspired by sea anemones, liquid states, and the shifting textures of the earth, whose surface is changing ever faster in the Anthropocene.

This duet is not about access, but excess, a meditation on how our environment both shapes us and is shaped by us. Renae Shadler  is an Australian choreographer, performer, and researcher based in Berlin, known for her worlding practice, which dissolves perceived borders between bodies and environments.

Her work spans stages, museums, public space, and knowledge lab contexts, including her internationally acclaimed duet Skin, created with Roland Walter. Here’s my conversation with Renee.

Renae Shadler: Hi. Thanks so much for having me. 

Gabrielle Martin: I’m so looking forward to this conversation together, and first I want to acknowledge that I’m joining the conversation from the unceded ancestral territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh First Nations. And as I reflect on Skin, its attention to touch, interdependence, and the porous relationship between bodies and lands, I wanna honor the indigenous nations whose deep teachings on relationality, embodiment, and stewardship endure here, even as their ability to exercise sovereignty and self-determination continues to be constrained by ongoing colonial systems.

And Renee, where are you joining the call from today? 

Renae Shadler: I’m actually joining from Berlin, in Germany. But I am originally from Australia, so acknowledgement- Wow … to land is something that really resonates with me, and it’s fantastic that we can also bring that into our conversation as an opener. 

Gabrielle Martin: I, so I wanna jump right into talking about Skin.

Skin begins from a profound proposition that two bodies with radically different capacities can form a shared movement language. Can you speak about how this project first began with Roland, and what you discovered about your own physical habits and assumptions through working so intimately with his movement vocabulary?

Renae Shadler: So this project came about actually, um, through an invitation from Roland. He saw my solo in 2018. It was called Restore!, and it was at the Performing Arts Festival in Berlin. And he actually didn’t leave the auditorium. He came and saw the show, and afterwards the technician said somebody would like to see me, and they’re actually just sitting in the audience.

Um, and so yeah, it was quite a bold, uh, first introduction actually. And he right away proposed if I would like to make a duet with him. And he’s an author of a few texts, and one of these texts is about dance and how he is able to explore his body through movement in relation to other dancers because, as you mentioned, he is severely disabled.

He has full body spastic paralysis and also a very severe speech impediment. Um, so it’s actually, like, through these collaborations that he can also explore his own physicality, um, and travel. He’s a big fan of traveling, so very excited also to be coming to Canada. Um, so that was how it began. And- He was interested from the beginning at working with touch, and as you mentioned, I had also this welding practice.

Um, it started for me in 2015 in a residency in Iceland. Um, it was actually next to an active volcano capped with a glacier, so the Snæfellsjökull. And I was there quite burnt out and on a solo residency, which is always very challenging. And in my backyard was this amazing geologic form that was so active with this molten lava underneath, which was also really, um, connecting to kinda my unrest, and then this very still, poetic, like, solid ice on top.

And through this relation I developed with the Snæfellsjökull, uh, I started this welding practice about kind of creating this relation to our surroundings, um, which is always there. It’s just about attuning to that, um, and finding ways to really embrace it physically. So when Roland mentioned working on touch, I all of a sudden started thinking about, okay, how could we find an environment for that?

Um, and there was a huge power, um, imbalance between us, and also in terms of pace. Like, I am very fast. Uh, I tour a lot. Like, um, I rehearse eight hours a day. Like, these kind of conventions that we’re trained to perform, uh, I kind of wanted to find an environment that could, um- Yeah, kind of unlearn these conventions, I guess, or like bring them into question without expecting them to also be a part of our project.

And, um, so I invited Roland to rehearse with me in the swimming pool because actually, um, in water there’s like this sensation of relaxation, and in warm water his muscle spasms would relax, so, um, the tension within his body would come closer to the tension within my body. And he’s also over 60, so he has a few more wrinkles than me, so if we spent long enough in this water, my skin would also begin to wrinkle.

So we could create a touch from kind of a closer point, if you’d like. Um, so yeah, that’s kind of then how this idea of skin formed, through bringing our bodies together and being in this kind of liquid environment where we would be able to shift and share vocabularies without necessarily copying one another.

Um, I think that’s also something that we really wanted to move away from. Like, how can we connect as individuals within a shared language? 

Gabrielle Martin: Yeah, and it’s really clear that you achieved that watching the piece. And as you shaped this duet together, how did the presence of assistants, caregiving, and other support structures influence your choreographic thinking?

Renae Shadler: Mm, so assistants plays a huge role in Roland’s life. He has 24-hour assistants, and- When we began rehearsing, it took a while also to figure out our relation within that because I also was quite new to Berlin and so my German wasn’t so good and Roland actually doesn’t speak English. So our working language was German, um, with like m- my errors and then also trying to understand Roland’s speech which is possible over time, but it takes some time to get used to the sounds that are maybe difficult for him or that I’m also not so, um, practiced in hearing.

So there was often this moment of interpretation through a caregiver and then if the caregiver was late to work or came stressed, Roland’s attitude I often thought would change, you know, ’cause all of a sudden he has a, a sharper tone or something. Um, but of course it’s because of this, uh, mediator in the middle.

So it was really interesting finding our way of communicating which actually came through eye contact because at some point talking was causing so much confusion it would just be about arriving in rehearsals and looking at each other and from this point we would start slowly moving when somebody was ready then there was this invitation to move with and this is actually how the piece starts.

Like we start by making contact with one another and m- moving and it looks a bit like mirroring. Um, now it’s actually very set but this was always our way of connecting also energetically that, um, as I mentioned earlier that I could kind of slow down. Um, often I would come to the studio earlier because Roland rehearses four and a half hours was kind of the sweet spot for us.

Um, but I still had very much this- background of an eight-hour day. So I would come in and warm up and talk to the designers, and then by the time Roland came in, I was, like, running, you know? Um, so it was, yeah, a really beautiful way of connecting. Um, and in relation to care, I think what you see in the piece is, like, one very small part of the piece, um, because we have been working together since 2018, and so now it’s been over seven years.

And also through developing the work, um, we went to Aus sicht Festival in Hamburg, which was a inclusive festival that Roland was also part of the curatorial team. Um, so it was very much like accessing his world, and he came to Australia, and we did a residency in a local art gallery and stayed at my mom’s house.

Um, and so there is, like, this big history of trust and traveling and booking flights with assistants and wheelchairs and things going wrong and just never giving up on one another. So I think the care comes through, um, yeah, like, a patience and a belief in the, um Yeah, in the a- attempt of understandings, there’s always a moment of coming back and sitting down and looking at each other as a basis.

Um, and that’s kept us going. 

Gabrielle Martin: You talk about, well, you’ve already t- spoken a little bit about worlding, which is dissolving boundaries between internal and external processes between bodies and the worlds they inhabit. So I would love to hear you talk a little bit more about how skin deepened, deepened or challenged this framework, especially through the duet’s attention to touch, habitat, and the textures of the Anthropocene.

Renae Shadler: Mm, so in creating the piece and thinking about this idea of environments, um, actually our first public showing was in an inflatable swimming pool in a dance studio, um, with the audience sitting around a pool and us being in water. Um, and then during the process, we realized that was really, um, not a sustainable model for touring.

So, um, we kinda reduced the water on stage to a plastic drink bottle that Roland, um, offers me water from and a small container which I actually drink through my foot. Um, so yeah, that was kind of the way of bringing these inspirations on stage. Um, but because we were working so much with the skin and touch, I was interested in the, the skin of the earth.

So how are we creating impact on the earth and how is that, yeah, exactly, this worlding idea of shaping us. Like, how are these textures that we’re moving through also affecting us, um, on like a very, uh, physical level? Like, if we run fast ’cause the ground’s hot or also if we become stressed or a little bit more alert, uh, like on a busy train.

Um, so the designer of the work, Judit Förster, she made these really nice textiles that we work on, and actually one is a sinkhole. So it’s a photo that she took of, uh, a street that sunk because of, like, damage underneath the street, and then she, she’s put like a green filter over it. So it looks a little bit like grass, but if you look closely, you see it’s actually a street that has collapsed.

Um- And so the other foil then is a photo of Roland’s hand and the wrinkles on Roland’s hand. Um, so we’re kind of looking at this very, like, macro state of the world of, like, surfaces collapsing and then also, um, the very personal with, like, the wrinkles on a hand. And I think that’s kind of also a metaphor for the piece that it’s very much based on this relation between Roland and I, but then during the work, the set starts to move, um, and shape us also, that Roland moves a chair that then also becomes a part of his body, um, that this relationship is extended outwards.

And we hope also that in seeing the work then the audience can reflect on that as well. Like, how are these relations in their every day, um, not only with somebody with a disability, but also with their neighbor, you know, or their neighbor’s cat. 

Gabrielle Martin: I didn’t catch those images. I’ve actually only seen the work on video, so that wasn’t necessarily what has stayed with me the most, but it is adding a lot of textures.

I’m hearing that, and I’m so excited to see it again now with that information. In your choreographer’s note, you describe being inspired by Ursula K. Le Guin’s writing on sea amoeba, organisms that exchange parts of themselves in order to merge. How did this image shape the logic of movement in Skin, and what does merging make possible within an inter-ability collaboration without erasing difference?

Renae Shadler: I think it’s always, like, a sweet spot in any duet. Like, how close do you come to your partner’s vocabulary? Yeah, how do you show parts of your- of yourself and open that up for somebody else to explore? Um, I think Roland is incredibly generous in, um, yeah, inviting someone into his world, and I think this is very, uh, present for an audience also.

Like, it’s quite easy to see how I come closer to Roland. For example, Roland thinks a lot through his fingers. Um, and so then when we were kind of communicating, I was like, “Okay, how do I, how do I think back to you through my fingers?” And I, I think it’s a very minor detail, but, like, I would kind of, like, scrunch my fingers, and this is actually something that Roland can’t do.

Like, he actually has, like, very long fingers, and the fingertips come together rather than bending at the joints. Um, so this was an example of, like, kind of sharing a vocabulary of thinking, but then finding our own pathway through that. Um, and then with Roland coming closer to me, I think it’s, it’s interesting in the public, like, it’s kind of something we take for granted then.

Like, at one part, uh, I support Roland under his arms, and he moves his feet very quickly while walking across the stage. And, you know, we’re think, “Okay, it’s locomotion or dance is moving,” but that took ages for Roland. That’s like something … He doesn’t wait there. This is like, I don’t know, it’s like, s- you know, me doing a backflip or something, you know?

And, um, I think that’s always interesting in the piece ’cause it feels like, like there’s, um, yeah, there’s a v- a viewing, you know? There’s a spectatorship that happens of things that we’re used to seeing that we don’t understand the effort that’s in- involved in that. Um, or like the detail in a scrunch of a finger from the joint versus a long finger.

Um, so I think that’s definitely been part of creating the vocabulary, um, and merging, like that we can share these aspects of ourselves, um, and perform them in our own ways And this idea of the amoebas, um, was from a coincidence of something I was reading at the time. And I just love… It’s actually when they have sex, like, the amoebas kind of connect, and they just throw DNA back and forward.

And I thought, like, “Oh, that’s so, that’s so nice,” like, that we could just, um, kinda open that up without there being any prejudice. ‘Cause I think also, like, mixed-ability dance, when I watch it, it’s often, like, quite scared or withheld, and there’s a lot of rules about what is allowed and isn’t allowed, and sometimes you’ll have, like, the able-bodied solo, and then, you know, there’s kind of this, uh, politeness with touch and duets, um, and caution.

And I think for us with this, like, lovemaking, that was, like, very platonic. It was just, like, fine to give it a go, you know? Like, “Ah, is it okay if I think through my fingers?” “Yeah, of course, Renee,” like, “I’m talking to you through, through my fingers. Reply,” you know? Or like, “Ah, I’m walking,” like, “Oh, your wheelchair isn’t close.

Can I try to support you to walk, too?” Like, “Of course, let’s have it a go,” you know? Um, and I think that was kind of our way of making it fun, um, and taking away the fear because yeah, the fear can be real, you know? Like, they’re very different backgrounds, um, and there’s definitely a, a possibility to offend, um, or not understand.

Um, yeah. And so that, this kind of fiction or, like, uh, playfulness that Le Guin also writes about in her writing, like this speculative fiction, um, kinda gave us, uh, a way through that. There is actually one point I wanted to mention also with the amoebas, ’cause it’s something in the last years after the piece was made I’ve been thinking about because I think it can be very, uh, problematic to think, like, disability equals a-animals or disability equals, like, embodiment without intellect.

Um, and that’s definitely not what it’s about. It’s kind of coming through this idea of worlding and species and, um, different environments and connection points. So, um- Yeah, that’s definitely something afterwards talking to philosophers and things, I was like, “Oh, wow, this, this could be possible.” But then when you see the piece and you see the eye contact is so strong and that the human languages are also influencing it, um, yeah, it just becomes another texture.

Gabrielle Martin: Yeah, this work is very exciting to me because, you know, when I saw it, I really felt like, oh, this is something I’ve never seen before, and I see a lot of work. And, you know, the deep dramaturgical exploration that you embarked on with Roland was very clear through the world you created, the language between the two of you, and it’s exciting because it felt both foreign to me and also had a very clear logic behind it.

I felt that the, the logic was there through that research and that exploration. Um, so you’ve said that Skin is not a work about access, but a work of excess, where multiple lived experiences coexist without a hierarchy of ability. How do you craft a dramaturgy that resists normative readings of disability on stage and instead, uh, builds a world in which no body is more or less?

And acknowledging, I think you’ve been speaking to this, but I’d love to hear if there’s anything more you have to add. 

Renae Shadler: I think it’s, um, interesting in the piece, like, the use of furniture and set design. So Judit Förster, as I mentioned, was working with us, um, and she spent a lot of time with my, like, crazy requests, which were to create a bank, like a seating bank, that then becomes a wheelchair, but has no kind of symbolism of a wheelchair.

So no armrests, um, no, like, seat belt, uh, cushioning, et cetera. So I think, um, kind of the way that this evolves, like the moving furniture evolves, is a proposition that she really took on also with the use of colors, um, and the materials she chose. And it actually was created during Corona, and there were some times where Roland and I couldn’t meet in the studio.

Um, so I would go into the studio with Miriam Zürner, who’s actually a very dear friend of mine and worked as a creative companion, but really was also dramaturging and very present in the work. And, um, so we were working together through the logics in the piece, and once we started working on this moving bench, it was very clear that then I needed wheels too.

Like, okay, now Roland has wheels, so I need wheels. And actually I am taller than him in the work, so now can I go lower? And what would be lower than a bench? Okay, it’s gonna be a skateboard. Like, I’m gonna move on a skateboard. So I think it’s very, um, intentional through the work, like the use of levels and the use of leadership.

So at one point also, Roland leads my movement through touch, um, and I lie on his lap facing backwards. So you see his face. He’s the protagonist in this moment. Um- And I think this again is something that you see on stage but goes through our collaboration. Like with touring, Roland always, um, like manages his own assistants.

He chooses who’s gonna tour with him. Um, he is kind of looking after their shifts and what he needs and who can provide the food and who’s gonna, you know, give him the water. Like, he’s very much, um, making things possible and taking on a lot of administration in the work, you know, just by making that possible for him to be there.

So, um, this kind of shared leadership goes through the whole collaboration, like onstage and offstage. 

Gabrielle Martin: I wanna talk a little bit more about your wider practice beyond SKIN. It moves across performance, public art, research, and the knowledge lab format, which maybe you can also explain a little bit, uh, about to our listeners, uh, in a moment.

But also looking at SKIN through this wider arc of your work, what questions about relationality care or environmental entanglement continue to animate your work? And what did this duet open for you as you move into future projects? 

Renae Shadler: So a big influence from my work, um, and my life actually, is Erin Manning, who’s a, a philosopher and thinker based actually in Canada, um, in Quebec.

And, uh, she was running a space called The Sense Lab, and I actually went there on residency in 2019 when we were kind of in the middle of making SKIN. And she thinks a lot about neurodiversity, and a lot of people in this group were also, um, neurodiverse folk. And this kind of, um, practice we were building and very much led by the Sense Lab and Erin was to work with the minor gesture and minor movements, and thinking about how we are moved in situations, um, by the space, and also these undercurrents that sometimes for, um, normative folk is a little bit hard to grasp, um, can often be, yeah, seen through a different light, for example, for someone on the autistic spectrum.

And, um- This was really like we, we were kind of moving from an event in Australia to an event in Denmark and an event in Canada, um, as a group traveling together and, um, having these kind of public openings in, in gallery spaces or in universities. And this really inspired me in terms of, yeah, again, these conventions that happen in a space.

Like, we would start the day by everybody bringing an ingredient, and, um, you would kind of know it would start around lunch, but of course, that means lots of different things to different people. Um, so I remember like coming with my cabbage and then, and then not sure what’s gonna happen, and then someone comes with like potatoes, and you’re like, “Oh, cool, maybe we make something now.”

And then you’re in this like foreign country and trying to find where their utensils are, and all of a sudden this dance begins, you know? Just through the doing of like a shared desire to eat. Um, and so this was really, uh, something I was feeling a lot of release in. Like, these events were really, um, widening what was possible for me or like what I thought of as choreography.

And then at the same time, this was when Roland and I were traveling together and building the piece through residencies. And, um, there was a really nice moment at the dinner table at my family home, and Roland was being fed by his assistant, and my stepdad was getting like really agitated, not by saying anything, but just like shuffling.

Um, and then I realized it was ’cause Roland had food around his mouth. Like, the assistant was like not quite getting it in the mouth, and Roland was having bad spasms at the time, so it was like a very difficult task to try and get… I forgot what we were eating, but it was like never really getting in the mouth, and it was around the mouth.

And at some point, my stepdad was just like passing a serviette, you know? Like, like this is something that clearly has to happen. Um, so Yeah, and it was, like, such, again, like, such an example of a minor movement. Like, it was this kind of friction between, like, what’s allowed or what’s polite and then what is just, like, totally fine.

Like, and I, I remember like Roland and I talking about it afterwards ’cause I was like, “Oh my God, I always get food in my mouth. Like, that’s crazy. Like imagine if, like, I tried to feed my cheek.” And Roland was like, “Yeah, some assistants, you know, like, if they’ve got a long shift, by the end of the day, it’s, like, really hard to get food in my mouth.”

And it was, like, this moment of, like, um, yeah, just, just really, like, unlearning, just thinking about, like, okay, wh- what, what is choreography and what is assumed and what is also just, like, so beautiful and such, like, a clear attempt to feed someone, you know? And, like, what is our idea of time, of how long a meal should take?

It, like, it also takes longer, you know, when you’re trying to find someone’s mouth. So, um, yeah, I think this is kind of the, the richness or the entanglements that I’m really excited about. Like, that was six years ago now, and it’s still something that stays with me so clearly. Um, and in terms of the future We’re actually now thinking about a new duet after having premiered Skin in 2020, um, because we’re also getting older, and it is a very physical piece to carry Roland.

And one thing I’m really curious about is if I can step out, like could it be possible, um, to have two different artists on stage, both with a physical disability, um, that they really can claim the space and their time in a way that, um, isn’t kind of also intersected with kind of this normative piece. Um, so we’re developing a duet with Tamara Rutenman.

Um, she is an artist with multiple sclerosis, um, very established also as a choreographer and a similar age to Roland. Um, and we’re looking at this idea of unbound energy. So how can, um, yeah, how c- how can we have this physical release when actually there is so much tension within a body? Like, what, what is that?

Um, and how do we kind of redefine our ideas of release? Um, yeah, and it will be also an electronic music, uh, concert ’cause Roland at the moment is very excited by making music and DJing. Um, I actually went to a concert of his last, uh, week at About Blank, like a very famous nightclub in Berlin. I was so proud.

He played at 6:00, like in the afternoon, so it wasn’t quite prime time, but, uh, yeah, we had a good dance. So that’s, that’s the next exploration. And excited ’cause actually Push is like really important because of, um, Norman. Like- Yeah. Yeah. It’s something when I was even at uni, like I met Norman, who was like- Really?

“You’re performing Push one day, Renee.” And I was like- No way. No 

Gabrielle Martin: way. 

Renae Shadler: Yeah, it was crazy. I didn’t know that. I was like second year uni. I remember it. And I was like, “Oh, what’s Push?” And he’s like, “Oh, Vancouver, and there’s this French part and the English part, and you have to come.” And then we were at Sinars together when he was f- there with Australia Council, like only actually when I met your colleague.

So it’s really, it’s, it’s really nice. It’s a bit like something, you know, those like festivals, and it’s like, ah, this is one, this is one you go to when you, like, make a good show. 

Gabrielle Martin: Oh, that’s so cool. I’m so glad you feel that way, and, and I’m so glad how this has worked out. And I’m super energized after this conversation.

Such a treat to just… I’m just dad more, and the more I know, the more I’m excited about this work coming to Vancouver and that other people will get to experience it. So thank you so much for your time today and, and for sharing with us. 

Renae Shadler: Thank you, and I hope you can see the work. Uh, yeah, and say hi afterwards.

Maybe wait in the, wait in the auditorium.