Episode 73 – Mythmaking (Trouble Score)

Gabrielle Martin: Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I’m Gabrielle Martin, Push’s artistic director, and today’s episode follows a conversation about memory, myth-making, and the creative partnership that animates Luanda and Pablo’s practice.

So I’m speaking today with lifelong collaborators and siblings Luanda Casella and Pablo Casella, the co-directors and performers of Trouble Score, which is being presented at the Push Festival February 7th, 2026. You can also catch an incredible artist talk by Luanda, The Unreliable Narrator, on February 5th.

So part ritual, part pop concert, Trouble Score is a witty and disruptive storytelling seance that revisits an old family scandal unraveling into an impossible plot. It’s set against the background of racial segregation and a military dictatorship. Razor-sharp, darkly funny text, immersive soundscapes, and otherworldly lighting reimagine childhood memory through the lens of magic realism.

What emerges is a surreal portrait of family myth where humor, complicity, and renewal converge in storytelling alchemy. Pablo Casella is a composer, songwriter, and multi-instrumentalist whose work spans contemporary music, theater, and international touring, renowned for his distinctive harmonic sensibility and ability to sculpt emotional landscapes through sound.

He has composed for major theater productions, including Milo Rau’s Antigone in the Amazon, and released two critically acclaimed albums with his band Little Dots. Luanda Casella is a writer, performing artist, and theater director from São Paulo based in Ghent, Belgium. A resident artist at NTGent, her work is internationally acclaimed for its ingenious storytelling and incisive deconstruction of language.

Her touring work such as Short of Lying, Killjoy Quiz, Ferox Tempus, and Electra Unbound explore how storytelling shapes perception, blending razor-sharp text, dark humor, and critical inquiry into the politics of discourse. Here is my conversation with Luanda and Pablo.

Before we really get into the questions, the conversation, I wanna acknowledge that I’m joining this conversation from the unceded ancestral territories of the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil-Waututh Nations. As Trouble’s Score reflects on fractured memory and the stories we inherit, I want to honor the indigenous nations whose histories and sovereignties endure here despite ongoing colonial impacts, and whose presence reminds us that the telling of history is never neutral.

And where are you two joining this conversation from today? 

Luanda Casella: Well, I am in Belgium right now at this very moment having a very complicated conversation about the lack of, um, teachings of colonial history in the school of my children, who, uh, who are still celebrating, um, Sinterklaas, which is a, is a, a figure that is very problematic here in Belgium.

So it… We are in the middle of this lack of, uh, consciousness. And coincidentally, recently I read the book of Naam- Naomi Klein, The Doppelganger, who’s a Canadian, and I was impressed to hear about the whole acknowledgement that is going on in Canada, and actually I think one of the First Nations to actually publicly do that.

And, um, it’s about time, I guess. And I mean, I hear about the whole investigations and all the horrors that, uh, it’s coming through there. So I think it’s very important that you do that also in your program. And, uh, it’s a, an ongoing, uh, conversation that’s sometimes very heavy to be had, but very important.

Pablo Casella: I am, um, in Brazil, actually back in my homeland, uh, but in the countryside of São Paulo. Um, here the indigenous discussion is very, very, very hot right now with the COP 23 happening now in, in Brazil. So the, the, the com- the, the, yeah, the encounter for the climate. And, uh, and the indigenous, there was a, I think last week they invaded the, the, the, the Blue Salon where they, where all the lobbyings and negotiations go.

And, um, uh, uh, several indigenous, uh, com- uh, peop- uh, rep- representatives in Brazil. So several indigenous leaders from, uh, the, the, the indigenous community in Brazil invaded the, the, the room where there are, all the negotiations happen, not in the conference room, but, uh, they call the Blue Room. I don’t know.

Uh, where all the negotiations happens. Yeah. And they invaded there claiming for the demarcation of their territory. So the discussion in Brazil is that they want their land to be protected, uh, so that you … that this, that the government will really mark. And there are, of course, some happened already, but there’s a lot of, of land that should be protected.

So this is, uh, yeah, this is, uh, the colonial past that we cannot escape. Uh, and this is a, this is a very alive topic in Brazil. I had the fort- uh, I had the chance to, to meet some of them in 2023 doing a, a play Uh, uh, that included the Indigenous discussion. And actually being, traveling different places, it was crazy to see how the relations are, how the, the, the, the, this, this topic, it’s common in so many places, like in Australia, in Taiwan, um, and the original people, it’s like a, it’s the same story all over, and I suppose in Canada it’s the same.

So yeah, we have… It’s very good that we, we acknowledge that always. And we, talking about a family in our show, we have Indigenous roots, uh, directly, very close in our, in our, from our father’s side. Uh- But 

Luanda Casella: we never investigated which, huh? 

Pablo Casella: No, it’s very difficult, actually. Some of 

Luanda Casella: the names and, uh- It’s super difficult 

Pablo Casella: to know.

Yeah, that’s true. It’s, uh… I asked my father already several times. He doesn’t know precisely what, uh… Yeah, it’s very difficult to know the past, from both sides. From the African side as well because it’s also from slavery, so their, their, their, their ancestr- ancestrality was completely ripped off. So it’s very, it’s very hard to find where you, actually where your lineage is from, which is a pity, but we have both Indigenous and African, uh, roots.

Uh, so that’s Brazil as well, in a, in a nutshell. 

Gabrielle Martin: Yeah, so many lost histories, and it’s interesting how the fight for recognition and sovereignty looks different in different places in the world, but it’s urgent everywhere. I wanna talk about Trouble Score. Trouble Score returns you to the storytelling concert form that shaped your early collaborations.

How did this project begin, and what drew you toward revisiting a family scandal through this hybrid of music, text, and performance? 

Luanda Casella: Well, we started working together, Pablo and I, wh- when we were in our 20s, and I think the first time we did a show together, it was a storytelling concert. We were in a, I guess, in a, in a stage that was the size of a table in a very small cafe in São Paulo, and it was very, yeah, for us, a kind of a round trajectory because we’ve been working together all these, uh, these last years.

Uh, Pablo has been making compositions for all the pieces I’ve made, and it’s the first time after all these years that we are both together on stage, so after, I guess, 25 years or something. So it’s, um… I think the format started also because that’s what we wa- we liked to do back then, you know? Like, uh, playing music and saying text.

I think it has to do somehow with the colonial history as well because the history of theater in São Paulo is pretty much repertoire, European repertoire. So for me as an actress, it was not an option to play roles. So I think we started creating our own texts and then mixing with music. Also, when we were very influenced by the Nuyorican poets, you know?

People who were just doing music with text and their own, uh, culture brought up. And we were fascinated by that. Pablo was already a musician doing music, but we kind of got into this format also with a wish of working together. 

Pablo Casella: Yeah, I think it’s, yeah, it was also a celebration in a way of, uh, bringing back something from, uh, from that time.

Like, it’s the first time we went to, to stage again, so it’s tell, “Okay, let’s do what we were supposed, we were doing when we started,” but now with, uh, with, uh, much better conditions maybe, and more experience. Um- … so this was a, this was a big part of the process. And I think also that, um, there was the, the, the, the, the necessity to live life, for me at least, at every as- aspect of the ritual we were creating because we was talking about a family story, and because it’s bringing back memories, it’s something the body, it’s something, it’s something that is alive.

So for me it was very important to, to everything that we were going to put on stage that we were actually experienced. That’s why every, every sound you hear comes from us, from our station. There’s nothing that is there that was not made by, that is not made by us at the moment. So we, we made it, we made it, we made it much more complex to perform, but also much more…

w- it was very, it was necessary. I, we, I, I could not see it any other way. So in a way it was m- about creating that l- live ritual. We talk about a ritual in the show, but we needed to create a live ritual that would h- would take place every night. 

Luanda Casella: I think also about the co- the con- the, the part of that is a concert, uh, we needed to do something because it goes about family trauma.

I think we needed to do something that is possible to replay. So every time we do the prayer or we do the mantras or we do whatever is there, we are in a constant process of healing. Uh, that’s the intention, eh? And then of course the audience comes in, but then it’s, I mean, it’s not, it, there is a prescription, we do it, and then every evening is different, uh, for, for the audience, I guess.

Gabrielle Martin: I mean, we can say that theater is always ritual, but this piece is particularly ritual on another level in terms of transmuting this history and the different tools or devices that you’re using to create ritual on stage. Is that new to your practices? 

Luanda Casella: I have the feeling that there is a ritualistic practice in going in the scene.

There is something of, okay, we say goodbye here, and we enter fiction because, uh, so far I made a lot of fiction. This one has this layer of combining the format itself, and then looking for, which is also part of our work as, you know, a conceptual, uh, of mixing formats is part of it. That’s why the shows are also very different from one another.

But in this one, I guess, um, it’s almost a bit raw for me to play, I have to say, you know, because it’s less fictional. And so the type of ritual I was accustomed to was fictional ritual, and this is … There’s so many, much reality. It’s still fictional, and there’s many things that we exaggerate, and we … It’s also we are so fictionalizing a ritual we went through.

But it’s sometimes a bit raw for me, so it’s, it demands a different kind of presence. 

Pablo Casella: I think you’re right in the sense that every time performing is ritual. Uh, I, I always experience like that. Um, I think after we lost our sister, uh, this became for me, uh, actually I never step on the stage again without ritualizing it because of her.

In a way, I kind of, uh, I, I bring her into with me into everything I do. So there’s always this moment of, of, of, of ritual, uh, of, of, yeah, preparing to, to, to participate into some- thing which I understand as ritual. Um, and I think because we made, we made more like as a concert, like as a music concert this show, for me, I’m very kind of comfortable, much more than Lu I think for, for the format, and I think would be the opposite.

If it would be the fiction in the way that the other shows are, I would be much more, much less comfortable because I’m, I’m not an actor. So I think we step more into my universe in this one than into hers, so that’s why I think maybe it’s more raw for you. And, uh, and for me it’s quite like, uh, very close to what I always do, which is play music.

Oh, but of course because we talk about a ritual in the show, and we actually fictionalize the real rit- real rituals that we did, um, in a way it gets, it’s, the ritual is really happening. Uh, I felt, I feel like after some shows I feel when we are describing moments of the ritual and we, and I’m live, I’m, I really feel under the effects of the ritual that passed already, and I go back to that effect on stage every time.

So, so I really think that, uh, for me it’s really like, um, actually being a ritual every single performance, which is a healing ritual, which is for me the, the, the most imp- actually that was why we did the show. So for me, actually the show is completely successful in the sense of our perspective. Because it does exactly the job that we envisioned back then to, to, to have.

Gabrielle Martin: Talking about your, your fictional or your work in drama and more fictionalized narrative, Luanda, so your work has long interrogated misleading discourse, the cult of story, and the unreliable narrator. How did these research threads evolve within Trouble Score? How did you navigate telling a story full of contradictions, gaps, and unstable memories?

Luanda Casella: The research that I’ve been doing in the past years was always focused on, well, unreliable narrators, but also I always put myself on stage, let’s say in a facet of myself that I think is unreliable. I work as my insomniac self, then I had my delusioned activist on stage, and, uh, I had my, uh, yeah, de- depressed about the ecological crisis, and also, um, how I sometimes can get very pessimistic.

In Electra, I worked on my anger and, and I think this one, it was looking at the child, traumatized child is not the easy one to look because you also at the same time want to protect. So the strategy we took were two actually. One was to look at, uh, the children as, as we experience trauma, so how children experience trauma by creating a story that is very hyperbolic.

So we, we tried to work with texts that were more focusing on magic realism, like how children experience things. Like I remember when we were young, our mother was going to these meetings for the, for direct elections during the middle of military dictatorship, and we thought the military dictatorship was a monster.

We just thought there was a monster outside, and I really believed it was eating people because, ah, we said, “Another one. The dogs take another one. It took another one.” So we saw these activists being murdered, being tor- And we thought that was a monster. So we tried to be faithful with that part of the story.

Uh, I think Pablo can take a l- talk a little bit more about his character in the sense of going into music. But, um, we also try to accentuate that when you are in a ritual trying to, um, narrate your story or narrat- or, or you are remembering the middle of your ritual, there is, there is the reliability of the real feelings.

Your feeling is reliable. Yeah, I’m feeling those things, but the way you see it is hallucination. It’s like LSD style, you know? So we try to follow this kind of writing as well, and, um, so there was no really a search for authenticity in the sense like, ah, we’re really gonna represent, but also really going into how memories in themselves are unreliable or this other state of consciousness is un- not unreliable, but there is a kind of like a discourse that you cannot really grasp.

Pablo Casella: In several levels we had, um, the unreliability of things. Uh, so let’s say the, the, the, the, the, the, the country itself, like the, uh, how you learn about colonization, how we learn about history, like then the po- to the politics to then being a mixed race family in a middle cla- middle class São Paulo where, like, uh, everything is kind of, uh, you don’t

You know, nothing is like what it seems, but you don’t really understand. And, um, and, uh, and this huge lack of … I think I feel that we had a really huge lack of vocabulary to understand our situation. Mm. Uh, ooh, and, and our parents as well coming from like, uh, how trying to navigate a huge secret and also pasts like, uh, uh, a, a very, uh, difficult up- upbringing in, uh, very poor families, uh, breaking to the bubble of, of, of the mid- mid-class trying to bring us to another, uh, status.

So everything is unreliable there. Uh, so what- What we came up with was an idea of how we could actually define ourselves and our roles in the family by archetypes and not by our names, you know? So which roles we play in that, in that, um, blurry scenario in a way. Uh, and that was also a big, big direction to the show like, uh- We are not just one archetype, of course, but sometimes by, by the role you play, you actually expand to many more p- much more people that can feel

I, I also play the role in my family, or I also see that, so we kind of create our own constellation of archetypes inside our family to, to, to, to build the narrative, and then expand that to the, to the, to the other participants of, uh, of the, of the fictional ritual. So we create also other archetypes in order to try to open this- 

Luanda Casella: In the book, we also developed seven other characters with archetypes as well.

So the voices you hear in the show, in the book you understand their backgr- their backstories a little bit more and why they are going through this. Of course, they’re reduced because that’s also the function, the narrative function of side characters is to be one thing. You cannot deepen all of them.

But, uh, also going around other types of trauma, from alcoholism to, I don’t know, sexism and other, other different things that we also had when we experienced the, the ritual. We had other people there, and there is a kind of a communion when you go through a ritual together with strangers, that you also speak very easily their pain.

Gabrielle Martin: I think something that’s so, uh, incredibly powerful about this work is that the text, you know, we talked about framing it as concert, and it’s more than concert, but the word concert is in there. However, the mythology that you’ve built that is present in the text is so interesting and so compelling and adds such, um, a f- fully realized layer in addition to the music and the projection.

But I do wanna talk about the music a little bit more. So Pablo, your compositions and treble score create what feels like an emotional architecture. Can you speak about how you approach translating the fractures of memory and trauma into sound? And, and what did this collaboration open in your musical vocabulary or your sense of how music can carry narrative?

Pablo Casella: I think there’s something in composition, if you would think strictly melody, harmony, that I don’t think, I don’t think is that’s like, um, it’s not something I think about. It’s something I perceive as receiving, actually. You receive something, uh, that’s inspiration and comes to you. But what I really think about when I’m making a play like this or any, any composition for any play that we do, is about the music dramaturgy, which is something else.

It’s like, it’s how we, how we take these elements that you’re receiving and you organize them throughout the, the show. uh, for me was always like, okay, I, I had this place for myself, so it was a, a, a homely place or having the music to, to be able to, to try to transmit what I was feeling. But it was also very frustrating because nobody would understand me in a way.

Um, you know, I was … I wanted to say things that w- that I didn’t have the words to. So for me, melodies were always, um, the way to express things that I had no idea how to, to, to put into words. So what I tried to do for this show, and I felt it was interesting, is actually do the whole way and actually try to really translate, like, how do you understand music, uh, and how do you relate the way music works to emotions?

So that was a big part of, uh, of the work in the show. So if I, if I, if I … We use in the show, actually, there’s a scene where actually this becomes very clear where I, where I relate home to an- to a chord, to a chords, and I, and I, a- and I, and I translate harmony into Into, uh, yeah, memories and, and, and our story in a way.

So music, it’s really about that too. Music is this way of going away from home, coming back home, feeling, feeling dissonant, feeling that feelings don’t match, and, uh, and different feelings are having trouble living together, but they are there and they exist. So I think that was for me the main goal to, to, to do.

So going back to the idea of like the music dramaturgy was how, how these elements are coming back and how they are living and they are live here in the breathing session, and then you’re going to realize that that was the element of the represents going away from home in a certain other moment of the story.

So it’s a kind of a, I work a lot with Lat- leitmotif, so things that come back to re- that, that’s, that’s, uh, represents something and sometimes is a typical melody that is going to come back, but sometimes it’s the harmony of a piece that comes back with another melody. So it’s to bring like a which universes are we talking about?

So if that’s the kind of general feeling of that moment, that feeling’s going to come back. And I would say in this play was a lot about the sounds as well. So I wanted to, to make sounds as a, as, as, as, as, as triggers. So we use a lot of triggers for real, which is like the idea that you have a memory and it, and it…

Or you, you hear a sound or you hear a word or you, you think about something, it triggers things from the past. So the whole show is being, is, is about being triggered by, by this magical realism of a memory as a kid and processing them at the moment. So every sound is processed on the stage. As you hit something, you are triggered by a thing, and you use that sound to process to keep on building that, that’s, that, that ritual.

So actually, that’s the main, the main line of the music project. 

Gabrielle Martin: So I wanna talk a bit more about how these different elements come together. We’ve talked a little bit about text, about sound. We’ve talked about how this is part concert, part ritual. It’s a lot of things. And I wanna know how you worked with text, sound, and light to construct this world.

What guided your decisions about how these elements shape the audience’s experience? And maybe just whatever you wanna say to how those work together. 

Luanda Casella: I think it’s a very… It’s, it’s building a show is super complicated, huh? When to do what. Most of the time I’m a bit frustrated with all the cuts you have to make at a certain point.

And, uh, I just wanted to say something about the, just the, the previous, uh, part about the music. This moment that Pablo is describing of, um, trying to describe something through a musical, uh, yeah, partitu- or str- a score, I think it’s the p- moment of the show that the audience connected the most, and I think it’s because it’s sad what is not said, and people often have that feeling of not being able to say what they actually feel or put into words.

And with this description, I think the audience experiences sort of generosity of like, “Ah, I recognize this.” Not knowing, just feeling. Uh, then I think when composing everything, um, we knew we wanted to give, um, a certain structure to the screen that was related to the work our sister used to do of ontology, which is a very irrational work of understanding how language works.

So we actually went through the, through the processes that, uh, marked our own personal history from our birth to her death, going through, uh, the revelation of this secret, but then also her illness and, um, working through death and what comes after death. And I think there were many moments that we also tried to make universal.

So we use, we used with the structure of the semantic squares, which is, was not something that she was using, but is a, let’s say a more, um, synthesized version of her work on ontology. Uh, and we wanted to give the audience the possibility of looking into pain or into trauma through the lens of language.

What are the words that we give to the things? So in contrast with something that I think is as pure as the scene that Pablo built, that people could just simply understand that feelings are sometimes unnameable Uh, unless you also can put it in a score like he did for himself. So I think musicians also probably enjoy this moment very much.

I also feel that people who are more rational, intellectual, they can also pick up with this, ah, it’s a combination of words that we put together, and then we create the narratives that are deceptive towards our- ourselves. We tell these narratives, “I have to be fixing everything. I’m the one who’s gonna go run away.

I’m the one… I play this role.” But it’s because of words that we do that. So that was one layer. And I think the light, yeah, we were, we were, uh, amazed by the work of Nick already because he also tries to create an atmosphere where sound is, um, honored with the light. That the light is not just doing whatever, but the light is enhancing the experience of the sound.

And I think Pablo and Nick worked also very well together with the syncing of everything. Maybe Pablo can say a little bit more. But I also feel there are moments that I also had to let go, that the show of the light was so spectacular that parts of the narrative are gone. Uh, I mean, people don’t remember pa- pa- because it’s a, it’s a spectacle.

And then we have to also accept that people can also go as moths. You know, it’s beautiful and, and this is a spectacle of beauty, of revelation. We have to be generous. So I have to make peace with the fact that the text was not the front runner of this show. 

Pablo Casella: I have to disagree. I think the text is, is the front runner.

It just that it’s in another way. Uh, I would say, if I can say one word for the entire composition of the show, I would say immersion. Uh, it’s an immersive show, so we, for the sound, we decide to work with the, with the se- several sounds. The sound of the forest, because the ritual takes place in a forest.

So there’s forest, there’s birds, there’s the other characters. Everything is in the surround system, so you are really immersed by the, the, the, the, the, the space. We try to draw a space where this is happening. Uh, you have the voice of all the characters coming from different places, but also the healer, which is present, more omnipresent.

So y- he comes from all four, uh, so it becomes almost like a godly voice. Um, almost also as, as an inner voice as well, which is also a part of the idea. But, um, but, uh, the sound is very present. It’s very loud. I mean, not very loud, but it’s loud enough that it’s impactful. The light is completely immersive, so you’re not, like, defining scenes, like in very spot, but it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s putting you in this, that trip.

But the text then, uh, how he’s- The experience is not like, “Okay, I’m following that story, and then I’m following that story,” though we are. We- the show has a, a, a logical line, and we are describing everything. But I feel you experience more like as a concert. So you know you go to watch live concerts, you don’t understand every single word that the singer is saying.

You’re not following every single piece of the lyrics, but the lyrics are so important because when it comes that chorus and you hear that sentence, it is going to resonate in your head. 

Luanda Casella: Maybe we could say something about the character of the healer, because the healer was not designed to be like a hippie figure that, um, says everything is gonna be okay, you know?

It’s a very provocative voice, and, um, the text of the healer is composed of a lot of theory on, on trauma and on, on healing. Also, a lot of, a, a lot of literature, actually. There’s a lot of, uh, books about death and about illness and about … that the healer is saying. But there was also, I remember, a moment when we went to this, uh, to the ritual ourselves.

We were with also a mainly white group, and there was this question about sometimes the plant doesn’t work, which is a plant … Going back to the beginning of our conversation about the indigenous people, it is a plant that was cultivated by the indigenous people. It was revealed to the indigenous people, and we may use it.

We are i- it’s generous enough of the plant to let us use it, to let us participate in its healing. But there was … I remember there were moments that people were like, “I don’t feel anything. I don’t feel anything.” And we were like, “Okay, don’t ask too much from the plant,” you know? And this healer has this, this position also, you know?

There’s your work you have to do. There is the plant. There is the ritual. But there’s, there’s a lot of work that has to come from your openness to do it. And I think this tone we were, we were successful because we were … I was afraid the healer were gonna be too harsh, and in the end is a figure that people connect to, like in a sort of going back to the, the, the, the tradition of storytellers that says things, and they tell the things, and, and you

There is wisdom there. You don’t need to fact check. You don’t need to … You know? There is something about words that are being, uh, coming from different texts and being this message of a voice, and that’s healing. Th- I mean, that’s the linguistic ritual that comes in the figure of the healer. A lot of text from different sources that passed through my mind, through, through Pablo’s minds, and ended up There

Pablo Casella: one a big, a big part of the, of the research in this, in this show was the creation of the, your shadow self. So we, we, we reach this, we, we touch this, this concept of the m- the, the self that is created via your experience and, uh, and, uh, and, and is there to protect you or to bear something radical that happens to you.

Can be a trauma, can be a death of someone, can be anything that you are grown up, um, uh, grown into. So the shadow self is, let’s say, your, your, the, your personage that takes place in the world, which is of course you, but it’s you protecting yourself from any kind of, uh, of, of violence, trauma, um, fears. So what happens that we go on living believing that we are that self, and actually there’s something of unbecoming some things of that self to see who are you, you really are.

But there’s also some things that you learn from the, your shadow self which develop, you know, that survive and you become very good at it. So like in our, in our archetypes, I’m the fixer, uh, so I was always the one trying to bring harmony into the family, trying to calm everybody down, talk to everybody and everything.

But of course, by doing so, I was putting myself as the last, uh, list of priority. So everybody, uh, ev- if everybody had to be better, good, uh, for me to be able to just live quietly. So what happens that in one side I’m, I’m, I’m negating my, my, my strength and my, and my, my needs. I’m pushing my boundaries. But at the same time I became very good at mediating everything and listening to people and, and organizing things and harmony.

So that is the good side and the bad sides every ti- uh, every time w- w- in your shadow self. So what is going through, what this show really taught me, uh, is that we, the integration between what you really feel you are and, and, and the n- and the, and the, everything that was created by your trauma c- trauma child, it’s actually the ultimate goal that you became, that you become one.

So I have the feeling that every time we are playing this show, I’m exercising that. I’m exercising this integration with myself. So it was a very interesting, let’s say, almost therapeutic way of making art, which is very meaningful. 

Luanda Casella: I’ve been struggling with the show actually because I’m thinking too much of structure all the time, the theater maker in me, the writer, you know?

Um, and I think, yeah, part of my shadow is also this, this over-performative, uh, experience of doing well, which is also a, a sign of, uh, being victim of racism. You have to be the best. You know? You have to really do. So this I, I understand. It needs to be perfect, and I think what is probably a lesson, I totally agree, we are taking care of each other’s, uh, shadow self because I became a lot of, of the fixing part as well.

I can… You know? Like, I, I also ma- let Pablo be frustrated because I, I was always the one who had this, the space to be frustrated because he was taking care, and I, I really experienced Pablo’s frustration in a very nice way this time. You know? Like, I, I could handle it, uh, with different moments, yeah, because it’s stressful sometimes.

You have technical stuff, and Pablo was playing, I don’t know, 100 instruments, and things go wrong at certain moments and… But I think what is difficult for me now that Pablo… Just now actually hearing Pablo, I think what is difficult is that I hate being vulnerable on stage. I don’t like it. I like the f- I like this fictional and being, um, even an evil person.

You know? I like playing the evil or the bad one, the bad guy, because I can go all the way. Uh, and being vulnerable is n- it’s not easy, and then also it’s, uh, definitely again, not my, my, my, my comfort zone, singing and doing music. So it was a lot of vulnerabilities together. So I don’t know. I think I still, I’m still, I still need to play a lot this show to realize what it does to me 

Gabrielle Martin: When you talk about the form, it makes sense also that the way the audience might relate at moments, it might be more to the text at moments, it might more be to the music at other moments.

It relates well to the magic realism form, similarly to how as a child you might go into a different mode of perception that is different than what would be our adult cognition, to be in a more porous space, experiencing things on different senses at different times, and I just think it’s so, it’s so well done, um, how you’ve integrated that into this work.

Thank you very much. So thank you so much for taking the time to chat with me. Like very selfishly, I love the opportunity to chat with you, but also for our audiences to get to know you more and get to know a bit more about the work. 

Luanda Casella: I also want to thank for believing in the project, Gabrielle, because we met, uh, more than a year ago.

You liked the idea. We had conversations. You were curious. We asked, you asked me questions. You, you, you accompanied the development from it, uh, of, of it, and always with a lot of trust, so I felt like, uh, yeah, I think this kind of relationships between artists and programmers and curators is something that is to, is, um, is something to value.

You know? I, it was independently of you liking or not liking the show, I think there was a commitment to understanding what we were doing, and this I really appreciate