PuSh Play Podcast Episode 39 Transcript: Transpofagic Manifesto: Stay with the Trouble

Hello and welcome to Push Play, a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form. I’m Gabriel Martin, Push’s Director of Programming, and today’s episode highlights building relational foundations and plants as inspiration for micropolitical actions.

I’m speaking with Gabby Gonzalez, the producer and longtime friend of Renata Carvalho, who is the artist behind Trans -Pothagic Manifesto. This work is being presented at the Push Festival, February 7th to 8th, 2025.

And on February 9th, we will also be presenting a marathon of Brazilian films starring Renata, including her own film, Body, It’s Autobiography. Trans -Pothagic Manifesto is a courageous and thought -provoking work that challenges perceptions of gender non -conforming and trans -feminine people.

Through a radical expression of empowerment, Renata Carvalho subverts the obsessive scrutiny of trans bodies, distilling this gaze and transforming it into art, literature, and education. Gabby Gonzalez holds a PhD in Communication and Semiotics and is one of the main people responsible for the melting pot that is Corpo Hestriado.

Working with production in her opinion is studying, researching, and above all, a political act of great courage with a dash of madness. Here’s my conversation with Gabby. So just before we get into speaking about your work with Corpo Hestriado and with Renata Carvalho, I just want to start by acknowledging the Indigenous lands that I’m on, that I’m on, stolen ancestral and traditional territories of the Coast Salish peoples,

the Musqueam, Squamish, and Tsleil -Waututh, and as a settler here, I continue to educate myself and engage in thinking on what that means that looks like different things every day. today, today that looks like reflecting on indigenous futurisms, largely thanks to a podcast episode by Riley Esno called Land Back to the Future on CBC Gem.

And in it, she quotes Nehiya scholar Erika Violet Lee, talking about reconciling the apocalypse. And I found it really evocative with regard to the role of artists and the role of imagining futures as part of a decolonizing practice.

So she quotes this scholar in saying that the job of writers and artists is to be the mirror for the people That we build what could have been what should have been that we find the knowledge to recreate all that our world would have been if it wasn’t for the interruption of colonization and Riley really underscores this word interruption and encourages us to consider colonization as not being permanent or inevitable.

And so those are the thoughts I’m sitting with today. As I join you in conversation Gabby and can you let us know where you are joining the call from. I’m here. Yeah, I’m here in Sao Paulo in the city of Sao Paulo the biggest city, the biggest city in Brazil, and here where I’m right now in Corpo has to add there was, there is a lot of rivers under the street.

These rivers are very important for us but now they are silent, you know, they are under the city, they cannot breathe. So, this for us it’s very very bad for our city for for everything for all the, all the people, all the, all the humans are not humans that live here.

Thank you, this bridges into my first question because I want to talk about the work that you do, and the work that you have been doing for the last 14 years as a co founder of Corpo has to add oh, and you’ve been leading this organization which you’ve referred to as madness, at times.

Yes, for 14 years. And my interpretation from afar is that it is a network that breathes life you talked about these rivers being stifled being silenced, and that a lot of your work is about giving voice.

but I’d love you to tell me about how Corpora Castrellado came into existence and from your perspective, what it is that you do. Well, first of all, Corpora Castrellado has 18 years old, almost 19 years old.

You know, Gabi, I was a dancer. I come from the stage. And this is very important for my producer, work because I really understand all my job from the perspective of an artist, but I’m not an artist.

I’m a producer. This is very important to start. Well, I started so many years ago trying to understand how I can help the artists, how I can help the work of the artist. So many things happen and many, many ideas I could change because this is important as well with the time I could go deep inside of all my job, all the production perspective, the artist perspective, and understand when and where we connect and how we connect.

Well, so I start to understand that I could do a kind of job that I can keep myself together with the artist and I can keep working during the journey of the artist or I can keep with the artist during their lives because I believe on time, I believe that we need time, I believe on continuity and then I decide to build a kind of work that building continuity in this country that it’s completely discontinued way of being.

Because of an instability and infrastructure funding these kinds of things. Yes, this kind of thing. So I try to find a way to keep all these people that work with me together every day, every year, day by day, doing and thinking about production in art and art of production.

So now a day what I believe that my work work, my producing work, is try to find the space, keep in movement, and find a context. This is the most important thing for me to build this organism. For me, it’s a kind of life organism that needs things to be alive, so sometimes we are more healthy, sometimes we need to stay a little bit quiet because the movement, if we spend so many energy, everything is a metaphoric way to talk about this,

but we have to understand very strong to understand how we can move ourselves, how we can move our ideas, because it’s a very political work, so we have to understand where we are, which context we are.

Nowadays, I’m not interested to talk anymore only about executive production and just to look to the artist and say, what do you need? What can I do for you? In this moment, I’m not interested in artists.

I work with artists, but I’m not interested only in artists, because I could realize that if I spend my time looking for the artist, I cannot move all around to do good. If I stay all my time looking for each artist, I cannot build something from the whole, all the artists, because what I believe right now is the production, it’s a kind of floor.

I have to build a strong floor for the artist to stand, for me to stand for all the people that work on the artistic world. Our artistic place can be strong and keep doing their job, because what I’m interested in is to find a way to keep the people working, keep people, artists researching, and not only live by project.

because nowadays our problem is the projects. I don’t like to use this word in a way, project, because it’s something that’s kind of beginning, middle and end, and we finish on this. And this is very, very hard for the artist because it’s another way to be.

So when you talk about creating that floor, are you talking about building networks for presentation, international development in terms of, because you’re not only producing, but you’re also distributing or promoting the artist, supporting their onward touring.

Does it look like lobbying the government for more arts funding? Or what does that look like, that building the floor? This floor, first of all, for me, I always call myself as a producer. Sometimes I can be a creator, sometimes I can do programmation, sometimes I can distribute, sometimes I can be an agent, and sometimes I do an executive production.

But I prefer to call myself as a producer because I believe that this in producer, I can do all these things. And I think it’s also a way to be more relevant for the producer, you know, because we never have space to talk, we never have space to create.

I believe that it’s a very big space of creation, the production. And when I tell you about the floor, maybe a very good metaphor that I like to use, because all my knowledge and my thinking, it’s about the vegetable philosophy.

I really love them, and I believe that it’s a very good way to understand how we are living, how we are working. So I really like to think about the trees. The tree itself, maybe it could be the artist, and the roots.

Roots, yes, it’s what I want to build, this place of the roots, because it’s very important, and the tree cannot be so beautiful if there is no good roof, you know? And for the plants, there is no hierarchies, so it’s important.

what is out and what is in, doesn’t matter. And I like this metaphor of the roots because for me, it’s a very strong and very smart way to be, you know? There is so many organisms together with the roots.

It’s something amazing how they develop and it’s a lot of intelligence that there is in this. So I normally, I think like this, this is a very important metaphor and an image for me. It sounds good. I don’t know if it help you.

I don’t know if you help you to understand what I’m talking about floor when I talk about this group. To me, I hear like the deeply relational approach you have. And the community building that much must be a very important part of what you do the support systems that you create for the artists and the interconnectivity.

The interconnection the relationships between all of the people that you’re working with. That’s how I interpret that. Yes, and there is and there is no one doesn’t exist with the other. It’s a part of the same organism.

And I’m really getting a sense it’s wonderful to hear from you because I get a sense of your vision and how you’ve been able to hold this organization for 19 years. I am curious about what how you there must be so many artists that want to work with you.

So I’m curious, like, for you, what makes a corporal has to add to artists like how do you select the artists that you want to work with. Now I now a day I work with around 60 artists and from all around Brazil and you know, I don’t select artists.

I’m not going to looking for artists. The artists come to me because I you know what I what I really believe that if I keep working every time. And, you know, nothing very big and huge with a lot of advertising.

No, I keep doing my work every day with these artists that it’s bigger and the other it’s smaller in the students that are beginning people that’s just trying to to express themselves with something that I believe that’s interesting.

So it’s a lot of people, a lot of artists working with me, and you come to me and ask me to work with you. And then, and then you. tell about my work for another one that come to me and talk, you know, it’s something very natural, it’s something very normal that starts to happen with us, you know.

And then after my work with Renate, after I started to work with Renate 10 years ago, of course this changed a lot because changed myself completely. So I start to work with another artist and in the main thing I start to, I could understand how pretty it’s my job, where I really can go with this, what I can exchange with people from this.

But there, of course, 10 years ago, I have no idea exactly all the things that happened with us, of course. And also now I have, we are now 26 people working here in Corpora Striado. So, for me, it’s also very important to realize that our job is completely collective, completely.

It spends much more time, it spends much more energy, but all the time I’m doing this with them, you know. With all these producers and also all the artists, so this, and also I don’t have a method to work.

I work with you in a way that I will find with you because your work is something very singular and so we need to work in this way. With Renata, it’s completely different because she’s completely different from you, she’s interesting about other things.

And so this is the way that the art is coming, and coming, and coming, and coming. And I like to spend time with them. Renata, it’s with 10 years, Leah Rodriguez, I’m living 10 years, and so many others, it’s around at least 10, 8, 6 years that we are together.

And I want to talk more about your relationship with Renata, but first I want to circle back to something you said about the political aspect of your work and that being realized over the years. You’ve spoken about Corpora Striado’s work as a political act of great courage.

wondering if you can just explain what you mean by that, a political act of great courage. Because when, with Hanata, for example, when we start the gospel according to Jesus, Queen of Heaven, and we did this performance, I decided to pay by myself this show, this production, because nobody wants to pay for this.

Could you explain why? Yeah, what that project was doing. Sure, it’s very easy because Jesus never can look like a travesty, he can look like for everything, everyone, but travesty not. So this has become a big problem for us here in Brazil.

We have a lot of constellations in our, and censoring. ship a lot a lot of censorship in almost all the places that we went with the show we had very big problems with people in front of the the theater telling that we what we are doing against Jesus against the church of course but you know all these people that came and do and do this kind of manifestation they sure don’t come inside the theater and see the show sure because if you go if you went there you will see that she’s talking about love all the times she’s talking about and how you can and how we can respect the others how we how you you make your your life better if you believe that Jesus is always talking about love and they never go against uh went against the travel transgenders and travis cheese and black people and all of love uh queer communities there is no even one word about this and so there i realized that my job it’s completely uh political and then i decide to uh to be in touch more with uh the artist that is talking about something about uh all the black issues all the visual issues the uh trans issues and i work with these with um hey all the the this the questions of um and i don’t know in english no but i will find,

I will find the world. But you know, it’s, it’s something that comes to me as well, because the artists understand that I am really interesting about these, not to be, to be famous and to have likes in the Instagram or all the these things.

But because we are really interesting about these because I really believe that this can move ourselves to other place can change our life completely, my and all the others that I’m working here. So these people changing another’s and another’s and another’s and that and we are working on the we, you know, I like to stay with the trouble Gabby.

I really like stay with with the trouble. because I think it’s this is the only way to to move the things you know and and with my job I could see that I can be on it and on this place moving the things changing and and with the artists all the time in partnership with the artists all the time in partnership with them this is a very important part of my job this is why I me and Renata for example we we change each other so much because we are always working and being together you know she in my opinion she always go forward of us you know she’s all in front of us she’s thinking in front of us so this helps me a lot to go you know and and it’s very powerful for me to to be in touch with this kind of of artist and also this kind of person this human being incredible one yeah but yeah you’ve spoken about yeah thank you so much for sharing that and I think it ties in beautifully I have another question about that specifically looking at your relationship with Renata because you talk about it as or you talk about her as being like a sister and I want to just learn a little bit more about that first project you worked on so the god spell according to Jesus queen of heaven a piece that you produced in 2014 and this was an adaptation is my understanding and I’m just curious if you can talk a little bit more about what made you like how you met Renata what made And if you can share how you perceive that her career or her practices in artists has evolved since 2014.

Yeah, so Natalia Malo, it’s a very good friend of mine and also a director, a theater director, and an artist, et cetera, that we call, so she went to Ejiburgu in French in 2014, or yes, 2014, and she saw Joe Clifford doing the gospel according Jesus, Queen of Heaven.

This, Joe Clifford was the writer and also the actress of this. text. She wrote this text after she did the transition of to be a transgender woman, because she was married with a woman that had a very big problem in his head.

It’s a kind of and she died very quickly, something very strong to her. And then she decides to do something that she all the life wants to do it. And she did this after 50 years old, something like this.

And she was a person that used to go to the church. She really goes to the church. And then she had a lot of problems in the church after the transition. And of course, she realized that probably this is not a place for her anymore.

And then she decided to study about the Bible, about the text of Mateus, the text of Peugeot, all this, that these evangelicals, I don’t know if it’s right. And she in this research, she realized that there is not even one word against trans, against queer community, not even one word, nothing about this.

And then she wrote this text, and she decided to go by herself. And Natalia could see and ask her, please, can I translate to Portuguese and do this in Brazil? in Brazil, this will be a completely another thing.

And then Natalé did this translation and also we start to try to find an actress. And then a lot of artists send us a video telling a small part of the video in Facebook that time. And then she’s for sure she’s amazing.

And then yes, and then we went to the city of Renate. It was Santos, she used to live in Santos, very close to São Paulo city. And then we start to work, we try to apply for so many different funds. But of course, nobody wants to pay for it.

In the beginning, and then we decide to do by ourselves and I decide to do this production and it was the first time that I decided to pay for a production and I keep after this I keep doing this with so many different artists since right now since with Manifesto Nosporfaszka as well and we we did our this uh all these rehearsals and all this creation together me myself I was the assistant director because as I told you I come from the the stage and with Renata and Natalia we work one year because it was our money and so I don’t have so a lot of money so I keep I keep doing this rehearsing and every every month and Renata was someone that in that time have a lot of difficulty with money a lot so she really needs this one to keep doing to keep working with us and all the things and then after one year we decide to to do the premiere and we did during I think two years and this show and we had a lot of problems with censorship and it was amazing because so many different festivals invite us to go and all of them have problems with the local politicals and the majors and the you know the institutions but after these I realized that people around from the festivals and from the institutions that invite us are very engaged with us only in that time that we are there.

They are engaged sometimes. You know, in the end, I’m not sure if people are engaged with us, with Hanata, with the question of that body or if they are engaged with them to be on the Instagram and all the, you know, having place, have light sometimes.

They are, you know, this movement, it’s a very important move to them, loco. And for me, that’s okay. But in the end, they believe that they did something. And we leave with the problem. Is there a commitment to actually be working?

engaged socially on addressing these issues in a long -term form. But during this time, many important things happened. For example, all the movements to say yes for a trans talent, say no for trans fake, and all these movements that Renata did, it was very important because the represent activity, it’s very important and it’s very quickly.

When we start to work on it, you start to move things very quickly because you you give light for something very important. These bodies have to be in all these places that they want to be. This is very important.

And then all these movements start with this process of the Jesus. Okay. And I know that also Transwafakic Manifesto has toured quite a bit internationally. It was nominated for an Audience Choice Award where I saw it at Zokritiatro Spectacle in Switzerland.

I would love to hear you speak more about what you think has led to Renata’s international success, but also how to speak more about how her work is appreciated, received, interpreted in different places in the world.

You know, Gabi, I think our discussion here in Brazil, the discussion of about transgenders, about Black issues, all about the queers issues and also the original people issues. I believe in the case of queers, first, we are in front of all the countries that we used to go.

The questions, what we are asking about, what we are working on it, what we are fighting right now, I think in all the places that we went, we are in front of these, we are some steps in front, of course, because Brazil is the first place in the world that died trans people.

We have to move, you know, it’s not because we are incredible. No, but we need to do this. We need to fight for this. We need to talk about this more and more and more. And transfer B, here, it’s something that you go to the jail.

So, Renata, in all the countries that we went to now and so many cities inside of Brazil, she did manifest in so many places. She, people love the work because she brings these questions. She brings all these points and these very important political points to the stage and to the audience.

And say, let’s talk about this very easily, you know, in a very good way. She’s very funny. She has a lot of humor. So, this helps a lot. She’s a very good actress. This helps a lot. So, she can work with so many different audiences that there is more trans people, only white people and heterosexual people, cisgender, you know, so many different audiences around the world.

And there is one very, I think, smart thing that when she, the first time it’s with subtitles, normal show, okay, but the second part with another transgender person, that speak a very good Portuguese and a very good language, very good English, very good French, very good Italian, very good Germany, you know, the language of the place, the local language.

And this helps a lot because people become close of her as well. They can, you know, they can, because it’s not easy when you come to show. I normally think, and I always tell to the artists that I used to work, that it’s not all the performance, all the shows that are internationalization.

You know, you cannot go abroad with any kind of shows. It’s something that you have to learn with time. It’s something that you have to build. Sometimes you have a very nice show. talking about something very specific from the place doesn’t make sense you know you are you’re not going to connect it and this is something very important to to know and and manifest we think that we could change our possibility to be international when we realize what the big importance of translation you know how because this is about it’s not about translation it’s about communication i want to communicate myself with you if i don’t have this perspective in my work it’s not going to to happen you know and i think for so with this with this perception with this attention because it’s something that you have you have to take care of your work and and with the audience if you don’t take care with the audience i i don’t understand why we’re doing this connection you know yeah and it seems like it’s been a beautiful trajectory that you’ve been on with ronada from having her be an actor in this first work uh gospel according to jesus queen of heaven um and then now with transphagic manifesto where it’s really like she is communicating herself with the audience in this work um i’m really yeah i’m it seems like such a beautiful partnership and such a necessary partnership for the development of her work you know as much as you’ve spoken to how she’s also contributed to how you’re perceiving your work the impact of your work the way you’re working in in financing projects yourself.

That’s a huge investment commitment. It’s really wonderful to hear about how you’re working. Yeah, because, you know, Gabby, in the, in the world that we live right now, that innovation, it’s a world that people love that all the the the the the funds and the projects has to have to be innovation and things highlight is the world’s talking about how we are amazing, you know, how, how incredible how can be economic policies and the work of the,

the artists, I believe that we have to find another way to keep, you know, to keep doing our job. For example, I believe that the future of our work, it’s completely handmade. It’s completely handmade, you know, because it’s, it’s collective and handmade, because in some way, you know, we have to, to think how, how we can work the micropoliticals.

Because I believe that this is the only possibility for the futures. Micropoliticals also, because I believe that the plants all the time are doing micropoliticals. You believe that this one in my side, she’s so beautiful, and she can keep alive without movement, without moving themselves, you know.

So this is, this is very beautiful. And I really believe that this is a possibility of example, good examples. You know, so I think it’s in this way that I like to to be to to think, for me, production, it’s a, I want to think about the language of the production.

How is the line because a dance theater have a lot of language, you know, all the time they are talking about the language, I want to talk about language of the production, I want to talk about the dramaturgy of the production, how we can build this in some way, you know.

We could keep talking. It’s really fascinating. And it’s so inspiring to hear you speak about your philosophy with regard to creative producing. artist accompaniment, political, social action, cultural mediation.

And I really appreciate that you also kind of made a full circle in the conversation, bringing us back to futurisms and the role of art and artists in that work. It’s been a real pleasure speaking with you.

Thank you so much, Gabi. Thank you too, my dear. That was Gabrielle Martin’s conversation with Gabi González from Corpo Hastriado, who is producing Renata Carvelo’s piece Transpofagic Manifesto at the 2025 Push Festival, January 23 to February 9 in Vancouver, BC.

Transpofagic Manifesto runs at the Waterfront Theatre on February 7 and 8, while a special film marathon of Renata Carvelo’s work will also be shown at SFU during Push on February 9. For more details on the 2025 Push Festival and to discover the full lineup, visit pushfestival .ca.

Push Play is produced by myself, Trisha Knowles, and Ben Charland. Special thanks to Joseph Hirabayashi for the original music composition. New episodes of Push Play are released every Tuesday and Friday, wherever you get your podcasts.

Coming up on the next Push Play. At a moment in the piece, I overcome the pain of the position. There’s like a superpower coming from inside of me to the outside.